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Detailing Products => LSP's (Last Step Products) => Topic started by: cufootn on July 01, 2008, 10:33:30 PM

Title: Stacking LSPs
Post by: cufootn on July 01, 2008, 10:33:30 PM
Can I put say collinite on for durability then nattys for looks? I know that Zaino can be layered but what are the effects of others?
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: DnD Auto Detailing on July 01, 2008, 10:52:37 PM
The general rule is, you cannot put a glaze or Carnauba on before a sealant. However, there are some glazes that you can apply before sealants. One of which is CG EZ Creme. Also, topping some sealants with certain Carnaubas simply doesnt work. You just need to test different combos to see which works best.
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 01, 2008, 11:26:47 PM
The general rule is, you cannot put a glaze or Carnauba on before a sealant. However, there are some glazes that you can apply before sealants. One of which is CG EZ Creme. Also, topping some sealants with certain Carnaubas simply doesnt work. You just need to test different combos to see which works best.

Really?

Damn....another new rule!  LOL   

Dan, I have done  this combo before...was it a waste?

SSR1
PB PP
Clearkote Vanillia Hand Moose
EX-P
Nattys

You saying that doesn't really work?  I really do like that ClearKote stuff on White....well I did like it until I used PB White Diamond but same principle. 

Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: DnD Auto Detailing on July 01, 2008, 11:56:38 PM
Based on the rule, Id have to say yes. But I havent tried that myself.
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 01, 2008, 11:59:09 PM
Based on the rule, Id have to say yes. But I havent tried that myself.

Ok, I have to dig a little deeper on this...I will say this...PB does put right on the lable of BlackHole and WhiteDimond to follow with EX-P or Wax. 

I suspect that plan of attack is ok, but the clearkote or other glazes would be questionable. 

If that is the case, that does save some time.   :hs:


Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: DnD Auto Detailing on July 02, 2008, 12:12:03 AM
I just read the description on the PB site and it sounds like Black Hole has polymers in it.
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: 05_sprcrw on July 02, 2008, 07:17:57 AM
wow, I am learning something new in almost every thread! This site is a million times better then the other detailing forum I participate in. Keep it up guys, I now have 4 different techniques to try the next go round.  :clap:
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Val3ntin0 on July 02, 2008, 07:25:02 AM
Based on the rule, Id have to say yes. But I havent tried that myself.

Ok, I have to dig a little deeper on this...I will say this...PB does put right on the lable of BlackHole and WhiteDimond to follow with EX-P or Wax. 

I suspect that plan of attack is ok, but the clearkote or other glazes would be questionable. 

If that is the case, that does save some time.   :hs:




Last detail I used Black Hole followed by EX-P. I hope PB is right and it wasn't a "waste".
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rockpick on July 02, 2008, 07:54:05 AM
The word that I've always heard - including instruction given by one of the Meguiar's chemists in Irvine - was that you can only stack so many thin layers of anything on just about anything before you get diminishing returns.

I think the comparison that he used was that if you take 5 pieces of paper and stack them all on top of eachother and take your hand and rub around on the top, the top few sheets will move around whereas the bottom sheet wouldn't move. 

Comparing that to waxes (at the time, we were discussing carnaubas but, my assumption would be that this would be applicable to synthetics or anything else for that matter, too), you can layer in as many as you'd like but you're likely removing or smearing or compromising the layer immediately below it at a certain point.

They love calling it the Law of Diminishing Returns -- while that may or may not be the proper terminology, it does make sense to me...   Further, I don't see how brand, variety, or any factor like that would really matter other than in the way it smeared or was compromised... 

IMO, the sheets of paper comparison really made it make sense...

-RP-
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: 05_sprcrw on July 02, 2008, 08:09:43 AM
The word that I've always heard - including instruction given by one of the Meguiar's chemists in Irvine - was that you can only stack so many thin layers of anything on just about anything before you get diminishing returns.

I think the comparison that he used was that if you take 5 pieces of paper and stack them all on top of eachother and take your hand and rub around on the top, the top few sheets will move around whereas the bottom sheet wouldn't move. 

Comparing that to waxes (at the time, we were discussing carnaubas but, my assumption would be that this would be applicable to synthetics or anything else for that matter, too), you can layer in as many as you'd like but you're likely removing or smearing or compromising the layer immediately below it at a certain point.

They love calling it the Law of Diminishing Returns -- while that may or may not be the proper terminology, it does make sense to me...   Further, I don't see how brand, variety, or any factor like that would really matter other than in the way it smeared or was compromised... 

IMO, the sheets of paper comparison really made it make sense...

-RP-

That cleared things up tremendously for me. Thanks, it really helped being able to picture that in my head. I knew that stacking was to many products would not help in the long run but I had no idea why.
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: DnD Auto Detailing on July 02, 2008, 10:49:30 AM
The Carnauba in glazes and waxes prevents sealants from bonding properly.
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 02, 2008, 12:02:58 PM
The Carnauba in glazes and waxes prevents sealants from bonding properly.


I have no issues going from a Glaze right to LSP.   But I also have no problem skipping the glaze to use a sealer either.  Guess for me it just depends but regardless, good info.  Scratch that, great info.

That's what I did on this car. 

SSR1
PP
WD
Nattys Blue (just to see what blue would do to light colors)


(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z217/RollingRockTX/Shellis%20Morano/IMG_2115.jpg)

(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z217/RollingRockTX/Shellis%20Morano/IMG_2104.jpg)

I was actually surprised how hard the paint was on this car.  I was limited on time but I wanted to hit it a little harder.  Did this car about a month or so ago. 

Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: 05_sprcrw on July 02, 2008, 01:37:48 PM
looks pretty good. I know a few weeks ago I decided to use WD on my F150, just to see what it would do to a dark vehicle. I am happy with it, but IMO I still think BH provides a little deeper look, probably not noticeable just my eyes telling me that it made a difference. But now I working on getting a hold of some Natty's red, have always wanted to try it.
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 02, 2008, 02:07:43 PM
looks pretty good. I know a few weeks ago I decided to use WD on my F150, just to see what it would do to a dark vehicle. I am happy with it, but IMO I still think BH provides a little deeper look, probably not noticeable just my eyes telling me that it made a difference. But now I working on getting a hold of some Natty's red, have always wanted to try it.


This is with BH on it
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z217/RollingRockTX/Black%20Hole%20II/IMG_2082.jpg)

BMW paint which was my last car I did, didn't do it right with the right polishes (another thread) but black hole looks pretty good on this one too. 
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z217/RollingRockTX/Andys%20BMW/IMG_2473.jpg)

Its also on our the front page of the forum..same car. 

I am going to be using BH and WD as a temp fix due to the fillers he has in it between full details.  I like using sealers and based on what I have learned this week, i am skipping the glaze step, well it depends on the car of course and time. 

JP

Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rockpick on July 02, 2008, 02:30:08 PM
That Bimmer is absolutely stunning.  Black paint with a bit of flake in it is SO much fun to work on... the flake just jumps out of the paint when done well...

I've only done one with that particular color - I think it was called Saphire Black, maybe? - and I kick myself for not taking pictures once I was done with it... I was in a hurry and the owner was taking delivery and I simply didn't have time to pull it off before I got it where I wanted it...

That guy moved away with YUM brands (KFC/Taco Bell/etc)... he was some kind of big-wig with those guys...

-RP-
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 02, 2008, 02:44:13 PM
That Bimmer is absolutely stunning.  Black paint with a bit of flake in it is SO much fun to work on... the flake just jumps out of the paint when done well...

I've only done one with that particular color - I think it was called Saphire Black, maybe? - and I kick myself for not taking pictures once I was done with it... I was in a hurry and the owner was taking delivery and I simply didn't have time to pull it off before I got it where I wanted it...

That guy moved away with YUM brands (KFC/Taco Bell/etc)... he was some kind of big-wig with those guys...

-RP-

yup that is the color alright.   I knew I needed something more than SSR1 or even 3, should have used the Menzerna on it.   I remember emailing you and saying, never again will I do that....that paint was just laughing at me. 

Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: leedriver on July 02, 2008, 03:14:51 PM
Did you guys decide if BH and WD were an exception to this rule?

My game plan on my black truck for the weekend was going to be:

Polish
BH
EXP
Natty's red

Should I skip one or the other?
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rockpick on July 02, 2008, 04:01:52 PM
Others may disagree but, I'd say skip the EXP.
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 02, 2008, 04:03:44 PM
Others may disagree but, I'd say skip the EXP.

Hey, I got no problem with that at all. 

May as well get rid of all my bad habits then..
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: FireFighter on July 02, 2008, 05:13:34 PM
Okay... Someone has do do some serious explaining here...

Since I have never used BH or WD, I have always made some assumptions, and for those particular 2 products, those assumptions were:

That they were more designed to fill in ultra light swirling/LSP marring
That they had either very little or no abrasives at all
That they were not protectants


So I just found out that the last one isnt true... And I guess I need to learn what those are/what they do/when to use them.

Furthermore, I cant help but wonder:
If I use SSR1, is there any step that I should be doing before EX-P? SSR 1 starts of pretty darn gritty, and although I know it diminishes as you work it, I thought that surely there is something I need to be using. (As of recently, I have been opting to use #9... I know it conceals stuff, but I am trying to play it safe here...)

One more thing... (just kidding)
Thanks!
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 02, 2008, 05:40:22 PM
Okay... Someone has do do some serious explaining here...

Since I have never used BH or WD, I have always made some assumptions, and for those particular 2 products, those assumptions were:

That they were more designed to fill in ultra light swirling/LSP marring
That they had either very little or no abrasives at all
That they were not protectants


So I just found out that the last one isnt true... And I guess I need to learn what those are/what they do/when to use them.

Furthermore, I cant help but wonder:
If I use SSR1, is there any step that I should be doing before EX-P? SSR 1 starts of pretty darn gritty, and although I know it diminishes as you work it, I thought that surely there is something I need to be using. (As of recently, I have been opting to use #9... I know it conceals stuff, but I am trying to play it safe here...)

One more thing... (just kidding)
Thanks!

Ryan I think the take away here is that you have a few choices:

With sealant or without after glaze
glaze to LSP or
correction/polish to sealer to LSP

So a scaled down version would be:

SSR1
PP
WD or BH
LSP

Or

SSR1
PP
EX-P

Or

SSR1
PP
LSP


That being said, it does say right on the BH and WD lable to use with EX-P or LSP.  That is the jest I think.

Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: leedriver on July 02, 2008, 07:48:53 PM
RR, based on your reply it looks like we should use either a sealant, or a LSP, but not both....

From your posts I know you've done this in the past, and the results look great, but have you ever had a problem appyling all 3 in a row? I guess if one step is removing/affecting the previous layer then it would obviously be a waste of product....

whaddaya think?
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: PWR KAT on July 02, 2008, 08:08:42 PM
Ok, I want to break it down in more generic terms so I understand.  Please correct me if I am mistaken...

Possible steps:

Cleaner
Polish
Sealant

or

Cleaner
Polish
LSP

 :blah: :blah: :blah:

Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 02, 2008, 08:09:23 PM
RR, based on your reply it looks like we should use either a sealant, or a LSP, but not both....

From your posts I know you've done this in the past, and the results look great, but have you ever had a problem appyling all 3 in a row? I guess if one step is removing/affecting the previous layer then it would obviously be a waste of product....

whaddaya think?

Well, I am no pro and I don't think I would know if I had any issues with bonding etc.  the "only" real problems I have had with sealants was with Megs #21, I didn't allow it to "cure" and my LSP was incredibly streaky....

My response above was based on what I think I got from Dan and Rock in this thread.

Again though, I haven't had any issues with the 3 glazes I have.  I own ClearKote VHM, BH and WD, I used to have #7 but I donated it to charity.  LOL

Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 02, 2008, 08:10:05 PM
Ok, I want to break it down in more generic terms so I understand.  Please correct me if I am mistaken...

Possible steps:

Cleaner
Polish
Sealant

or

Cleaner
Polish
LSP

 :blah: :blah: :blah:



Yes that is the jest I also got, I used product as examples...nice pick up.

Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: FireFighter on July 03, 2008, 01:42:24 PM
<snip>

 I used to have #7 but I donated it to charity.  LOL
Hmmm... Wonder what charity that was... O0

Anywho, thanks for the write up...

But the question still begs an answer: I know you cant do an LSP then sealant, but why not in the reverse order?
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Val3ntin0 on July 03, 2008, 02:07:14 PM
Ok, I want to break it down in more generic terms so I understand.  Please correct me if I am mistaken...

Possible steps:

Cleaner
Polish
Sealant

or

Cleaner
Polish
LSP

 :blah: :blah: :blah:



Yes that is the jest I also got, I used product as examples...nice pick up.



before

So if I wanted to use Black Hole somewhere in there, where would it go? In terms of the first option with the inclusion of a sealant.  :dh:
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: DnD Auto Detailing on July 03, 2008, 04:01:07 PM
Did you guys decide if BH and WD were an exception to this rule?

My game plan on my black truck for the weekend was going to be:

Polish
BH
EXP
Natty's red

Should I skip one or the other?

A lot of people top sealants with a Carnauba. I dont really agree with it however.

Okay... Someone has do do some serious explaining here...

Since I have never used BH or WD, I have always made some assumptions, and for those particular 2 products, those assumptions were:

That they were more designed to fill in ultra light swirling/LSP marring
That they had either very little or no abrasives at all
That they were not protectants


So I just found out that the last one isnt true... And I guess I need to learn what those are/what they do/when to use them.

All of those assumptions are true. A glaze with polymers in it will not offer much protection. I would not rely only on a product like that for protection.

Furthermore, I cant help but wonder:
If I use SSR1, is there any step that I should be doing before EX-P? SSR 1 starts of pretty darn gritty, and although I know it diminishes as you work it, I thought that surely there is something I need to be using. (As of recently, I have been opting to use #9... I know it conceals stuff, but I am trying to play it safe here...)

One more thing... (just kidding)
Thanks!

You're getting into a completely different discussion, which is a lot more complicated. Basically what it comes down to is, what type of pad is being used with SSR1.

RR, based on your reply it looks like we should use either a sealant, or a LSP, but not both....

From your posts I know you've done this in the past, and the results look great, but have you ever had a problem appyling all 3 in a row? I guess if one step is removing/affecting the previous layer then it would obviously be a waste of product....

whaddaya think?

LSP= Carnauba or a sealant. 99.9% of the time the sealant is before the Carnauba. Using both is fine, I just personally dont agree with the reasoning people do it.

Ok, I want to break it down in more generic terms so I understand.  Please correct me if I am mistaken...

Possible steps:

Cleaner
Polish
Sealant

or

Cleaner
Polish
LSP

Either is fine, but why do you need a cleaner before polish?
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Rollingrock on July 03, 2008, 04:07:32 PM
Val, sorry I am idoit. I thought I was replying to your thread but instead I somehow edited it.  Sorry about that.   

Sometimes  :admp: ain't what its all cracked up to be.


Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: 05_sprcrw on July 03, 2008, 04:31:39 PM
Well that helped to clear it up a ton for me.
Title: Re: Stacking LSPs
Post by: Val3ntin0 on July 03, 2008, 06:58:16 PM
No worries RR  :thumbsiup:
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