The Detailers Cafe
General Category => Car/Truck Mod Talk => Topic started by: Rollingrock on November 23, 2014, 10:59:08 PM
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Gents
So I am a bad boy for not putting a tender system on my F250...I had one on my bike and now for my Side By Side...but this brings up a question.
On a PSD...with two battery's. Do I need one or one for each battery? I know they are tied at some point in series so I didn't know if one would cover both or if better to put one on each?
I am about to buy the 4 bank Battery Tender from Amazon....so any help is welcomed.
Cheers
RR
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Think those are in parallel, not series
- If they were in series, that would be a 24VDC system.
I know BatteryMinder brand you can hook up a single charger to multiple batteries, as long as they are similar in discharge state.
- Dad has 2 trickle inputs under the hook on his RV, one for the engine batt and one for the house batteries. He has the BatteryMinder brand same as me.
You would need to check the owners manual for the brand that you are buying to see if you can hook up one trickle charger to multiple batteries.
If the brand does not allow for multiple batteries on a single charger, the next item is how to isolate one of the batteries to connect to a trickle charger, stand alone, while the other one is connected in the truck still.
- You would not want both batteries in parallel and multiple trickle chargers in parallel as well.
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a battery tender will work fine for you , JP. just one.
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a battery tender will work fine for you , JP. just one.
Thanks guys
I got trigger happy and bought the 4 bank Battery Tender. I figured one for each batter in the truck and my side by side....
So to be clear, I only need 1 on the F250 or will one on each battery be ok too?
This is what I bought
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CIPHUI/ref=sr_ph?ie=UTF8&qid=1416841119&sr=1&keywords=battery+tender (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CIPHUI/ref=sr_ph?ie=UTF8&qid=1416841119&sr=1&keywords=battery+tender)
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I just got a chance to check the owners manual for that brand charger.
It is a little different than the Battery Minder brand.
(http://www.batterytender.com/assets/img/static/series9.gif)
Text from the mfgr on this use case
In Figure 9 we see a pair of 12-volt batteries connected in parallel. This 12-volt battery pack is connected to a single 12-volt charger. Note the blue wire designated W1. The purpose of this wire is to balance the voltage drop evenly across both batteries and each wire during charging. This is not critical for lower current chargers, but when you start to get into the 10 amp and above range, the voltage differential can be significant. The blue wire W1 must be connected to the opposite end of the battery pack as the black wire at the top of the battery pack.
The one you got, if a single bank can charge both at the same time, this is how you would use it.
If you plan on running 2 of the banks to the truck, you will need to isolate one of the batteries from the truck and charge them as if they were 2 vehicles.
- Battery Tender did not show 2 batteries in parallel with 2 chargers.
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Steve has it nailed, make sure you isolate the batteries if you want to use two banks to charge the two batteries.
I am sure with just a "Maintenance Charge" being needed, you are fine with just one bank charging both though.
Here is the "bolt in" unit I put in my PSD.
http://www.geniuschargers.com/G3500 (http://www.geniuschargers.com/G3500)
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Think those are in parallel, not series
- If they were in series, that would be a 24VDC system.
Yea, but think of how much faster it would turn over with 24 volts powering everything!
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I just got a chance to check the owners manual for that brand charger.
It is a little different than the Battery Minder brand.
([url]http://www.batterytender.com/assets/img/static/series9.gif[/url])
Text from the mfgr on this use case
In Figure 9 we see a pair of 12-volt batteries connected in parallel. This 12-volt battery pack is connected to a single 12-volt charger. Note the blue wire designated W1. The purpose of this wire is to balance the voltage drop evenly across both batteries and each wire during charging. This is not critical for lower current chargers, but when you start to get into the 10 amp and above range, the voltage differential can be significant. The blue wire W1 must be connected to the opposite end of the battery pack as the black wire at the top of the battery pack.
The one you got, if a single bank can charge both at the same time, this is how you would use it.
If you plan on running 2 of the banks to the truck, you will need to isolate one of the batteries from the truck and charge them as if they were 2 vehicles.
- Battery Tender did not show 2 batteries in parallel with 2 chargers.
VERY helpful Steve, thank you. I would have totally hooked them both up.
So neg on one and positive on the other.
I went to a school for kids who don't read good but do other stuff good.
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VERY helpful Steve, thank you. I would have totally hooked them both up.
So neg on one and positive on the other.
I went to a school for kids who don't read good but do other stuff good.
correct : Neg on one battery, Pos on the other battery with a single charger.
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VERY helpful Steve, thank you. I would have totally hooked them both up.
So neg on one and positive on the other.
I went to a school for kids who don't read good but do other stuff good.
correct : Neg on one battery, Pos on the other battery with a single charger.
As noted, I went to school for kids that don't read or type good but do other stuff good.
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VERY helpful Steve, thank you. I would have totally hooked them both up.
So neg on one and positive on the other.
I went to a school for kids who don't read good but do other stuff good.
correct : Neg on one battery, Pos on the other battery with a single charger.
As noted, I went to school for kids that don't read or type good but do other stuff good.
Detailing School? :funny:
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VERY helpful Steve, thank you. I would have totally hooked them both up.
So neg on one and positive on the other.
I went to a school for kids who don't read good but do other stuff good.
correct : Neg on one battery, Pos on the other battery with a single charger.
As noted, I went to school for kids that don't read or type good but do other stuff good.
Detailing School? :funny:
I think it is killing school.. :wow:
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Guys
A friend of mine just sent me a note and good point. He said, "make sure that the batteries are hard wired in parallel, a lot are switched...if switched, you will need to use 2 charger banks."
so how do I know?
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I only know Ford, and they are not switched as far as the wiring of the batteries go.
- Dad's RV, he can switch the house batteries to the engine battery, in case he needs to jump himself. That is why he has 2 trickle charger inputs on it.
If the generator is charging a battery is another question, but that is if the generator ( alternator ) is supplying voltage to the battery.
- The 2006 Super duty with dual batteries and dual generators the charging of the batteries is controlled by the PCM.
2006 Ford F250 / F250 cell 12, charging
(http://www.thedetailerscafe.com/smf/gallery/3/464-251114165118-35591628.jpeg)
(http://www.thedetailerscafe.com/smf/gallery/3/464-251114165119-35602222.jpeg)
(http://www.thedetailerscafe.com/smf/gallery/3/464-251114165122-35611344.jpeg)
(http://www.thedetailerscafe.com/smf/gallery/3/464-251114165113-35571183.jpeg)
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I just got a chance to check the owners manual for that brand charger.
It is a little different than the Battery Minder brand.
([url]http://www.batterytender.com/assets/img/static/series9.gif[/url])
Text from the mfgr on this use case
In Figure 9 we see a pair of 12-volt batteries connected in parallel. This 12-volt battery pack is connected to a single 12-volt charger. Note the blue wire designated W1. The purpose of this wire is to balance the voltage drop evenly across both batteries and each wire during charging. This is not critical for lower current chargers, but when you start to get into the 10 amp and above range, the voltage differential can be significant. The blue wire W1 must be connected to the opposite end of the battery pack as the black wire at the top of the battery pack.
The one you got, if a single bank can charge both at the same time, this is how you would use it.
If you plan on running 2 of the banks to the truck, you will need to isolate one of the batteries from the truck and charge them as if they were 2 vehicles.
- Battery Tender did not show 2 batteries in parallel with 2 chargers.
VERY helpful Steve, thank you. I would have totally hooked them both up.
So neg on one and positive on the other.
I went to a school for kids who don't read good but do other stuff good.
Thanks Steve
So is this still the method I need to take then given your info?
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Thanks Steve
So is this still the method I need to take then given your info?
Yes this is the config.
(http://www.batterytender.com/assets/img/static/series9.gif)
Your truck, the ground / - side of the battery happens to be wire to the truck frame, instead of wire only.
- Ford has done this since the late 90s.
BatteryMinder is an SAE plug on it, that would be adapted to alligator clamps if needed.
I made an adapter to a trolling motor plug and the receptacle is mounted in Kydex and wired to the battery.
(http://images.jamestowndistributors.com/woeimages/electrical/250_250/9676.jpg)
I don't have to open the hood to connect the trickle charger to the truck. It is right next to the panel mounted plug ( shore line ) for the block heater.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-50RBz-Qejt8/TxS8DoNMbNI/AAAAAAAAAIM/ltp_EhNFaOc/s320/plug.jpg)
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I looked under the hood of mine last night before seeing Steve's response. All hardwired, there is no way for a switch to be in place.
I like your plug idea Steve, I just routed the charger plugin to be down by the factory block heater and reach in and pull it our to plug in. I sure like the idea of mounting something that is weather proof like above. :cheers:
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Steve,
You are the absolute master of electrons around here, but I have a question. With the dual batter SD's, I agree a trickle charger for trucks that aren't used frequently is a great idea. And I fully agree with the basic premise of your simple wiring diagram - except for one part. I like and agree with wiring the Negative (-) from the charger to just one of the batteries. It's the Positive (+) lead I have a question on. Here's why.
With all of the fancy new electronics included in new vehicles, I'm not 100% certain that wiring the + lead from the charger to just one battery is actually going to charge both batteries. Sure, in theory it should, but I've seen all sorts of weird stuff out in the real world where the way one thinks something should work just doesn't. Usually, some Engineer had a different / better idea and sold it to management. The result is something that makes sense to somebody, but not the rest of us. (Take for instance the new Ford method of measuring the oil level via the dipstick. The "old full" is now "over filled.")
So wouldn't JP be safer running a separate lead (he has four as I recall) to each + terminal on each battery? And don't be afraid to school me on this one.
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Tom,
That picture is from the Battery Tender web site. They suggest that for voltage drop reasons when using their product.
Theoretically ( there is your favorite word from us Engineers ) batteries in or out of the truck it should work fine.
The battery cable on the + side and the wire to frame on the - side are actually larger than the wire from the battery charger, and act the same as the charger wire.
- Any voltage drop from small AWG wire would be caused by the trickle charger in this use case.
It is the same as hooking it to the same battery and charging them in parallel.
- Very similar to how some dual battery a F150 with a single alternator.
On the topic of hooking up 2 chargers, that is not an issue as long as they are isolated from each other. You would not want 2 trickle chargers fighting each other on the same parallel circuit.
- Battery Tender shows a series hook up, but that is for a 24V system, and one of the drawing they show I looked at cross eye'd. It did not make sense to me.
On the topic of oil dip stick; my dad taught me in the early 70s that the cross hatched section was the safe operating range. It did not need to be at the top of the range to operate the motor.
I think Ford had to publish a do not have the oil to the top mark, as too many people would:
A) fill it right to the top before all the oil drained down
and
B) could not find the real mark with 5W20 oil that does not turn black like it did in the 70s & 80s, making it harder to see the real top.
- I would not be shocked if Ford changed the Dip stick markings on the newer motors, so it was 1/8 off the top line now, so even if filled right to the top line it is only at 7/8 of the safe operating range. Those warranty tickets cost Ford a ton of money over the years.
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Tom,
That picture is from the Battery Tender web site. They suggest that for voltage drop reasons when using their product.
Theoretically ( there is your favorite word from us Engineers ) batteries in or out of the truck it should work fine.
The battery cable on the + side and the wire to frame on the - side are actually larger than the wire from the battery charger, and act the same as the charger wire.
- Any voltage drop from small AWG wire would be caused by the trickle charger in this use case.
It is the same as hooking it to the same battery and charging them in parallel.
- Very similar to how some dual battery a F150 with a single alternator.
On the topic of hooking up 2 chargers, that is not an issue as long as they are isolated from each other. You would not want 2 trickle chargers fighting each other on the same parallel circuit.
- Battery Tender shows a series hook up, but that is for a 24V system, and one of the drawing they show I looked at cross eye'd. It did not make sense to me.
On the topic of oil dip stick; my dad taught me in the early 70s that the cross hatched section was the safe operating range. It did not need to be at the top of the range to operate the motor.
I think Ford had to publish a do not have the oil to the top mark, as too many people would:
A) fill it right to the top before all the oil drained down
and
B) could not find the real mark with 5W20 oil that does not turn black like it did in the 70s & 80s, making it harder to see the real top.
- I would not be shocked if Ford changed the Dip stick markings on the newer motors, so it was 1/8 off the top line now, so even if filled right to the top line it is only at 7/8 of the safe operating range. Those warranty tickets cost Ford a ton of money over the years.
Steve,
I figured you'd have a really good answer and you did. I was just concerned that the two positive posts are not actually directly connected anywhere and have a relay / computer / something else controlling the connection. That might mean both batteries don't actually get charged.
As for the dipstick, I always liked knowing that if I was in the safe (cross hatched) range, I was Ok and "full" was right at the top of that range. Having "full" be "right in the middle of the safe range" still doesn't compute with this Mechanical Engineer.
Have a safe and happy Thanksgiving!
Tom
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Steve,
I figured you'd have a really good answer and you did. I was just concerned that the two positive posts are not actually directly connected anywhere and have a relay / computer / something else controlling the connection. That might mean both batteries don't actually get charged. ...<snip>..
On The SuperDuty, both + posts are directly attached to each other. Circuit 2037, red wire.
- Might be a hard to see, it is not the best quality picture when it is uploaded.
Other mfgrs, got me. That could be the case on a Chevy or Ram.
- I still cannot make heads or tails out of some stuff GM engineers do. There have been times I have had to look at a G6 wiring diagram a few times to figure out what they are doing with the function.
...<snip>..As for the dipstick, I always liked knowing that if I was in the safe (cross hatched) range, I was Ok and "full" was right at the top of that range. Having "full" be "right in the middle of the safe range" still doesn't compute with this Mechanical Engineer.
The part when it is OK to run the motor, when it is in the bottom 1/4 of the range, is what dad really had to beat into me. That did not make sense for years.
He finally told me this way : " It is OK to run an engine with a 1/4 tank of fuel in it, it does not have to be on full to operate it safely."
Have a good holiday, ours is on SAT.
- today is putting up the tree.
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On The SuperDuty, both + posts are directly attached to each other. Circuit 2037, red wire.
- Might be a hard to see, it is not the best quality picture when it is uploaded....<snip>
I can also confirm that is the case when I looked under the hood of my truck. There is a direct run positive wire from one battery to the other. It routes over top of the rad.
Thanks for the education on the other Stuff Steve, It is great to learn those details and refresh on the whole 12v circuit.
Pretty much everything I have worked on (with the exception of 24v systems in our tractors), is 12v. Lots of quirks and mix-ups can easily happen when you add a second battery.
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Pretty much everything I have worked on (with the exception of 24v systems in our tractors), is 12v. Lots of quirks and mix-ups can easily happen when you add a second battery.
You should have seen the fireworks a few years back when some state DOT boys tried to jump one of our stranded (12 volt) 10 wheel dump trucks with a 24 volt loader. Yea, that was sweet.
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Tender came in, got out to storage and yup, the leads are not long enough....so I panicked a little...called Steve...called Tom twice...
Headed off to Autozone got some wire and but-connectors/heat shrink.
Made some 6 foot long extensions...so now I can start charging and tending to the little lady.
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My handy work
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/28/04fc14a1cb2012f6f43c1cb50dd29a21.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/28/84a452f75703b8598702e9ce414fbc81.jpg)
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Sorry I missed your call, we did platelet donations today for Black Friday.
looks good, as long as you kept the polarity the same you are good to go.
You might want to look at adding SAE connectors on the items, and just get SAE to SAE cables.
http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0148-12-Extension-Cable/dp/B002DU3TTO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417237390&sr=8-1&keywords=sae+cable (http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0148-12-Extension-Cable/dp/B002DU3TTO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417237390&sr=8-1&keywords=sae+cable)
They are pretty easy to find up to 25' long
http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0148-25-Disconnect-Extension/dp/B000FW2MWW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1417237390&sr=8-5&keywords=sae+cable (http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0148-25-Disconnect-Extension/dp/B000FW2MWW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1417237390&sr=8-5&keywords=sae+cable)
SAE to ring terminal to mount them direct on the battery.
http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0069-6-Terminal-Disconnect/dp/B000NCOKZQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1417237390&sr=8-2&keywords=sae+cable (http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-081-0069-6-Terminal-Disconnect/dp/B000NCOKZQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1417237390&sr=8-2&keywords=sae+cable)
You can go the Powerlet route if you want to mount it on the ATV & Side by side.
This is the one I have on my ZG
http://www.powerlet.com/product/tankbag-or-saddlebag-kit-connector-only/286 (http://www.powerlet.com/product/tankbag-or-saddlebag-kit-connector-only/286)
One for the battery charger and the other side for the heated gear power.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ob-6S5gRL20/VHlV5i7WX2I/AAAAAAAABAA/t_4kWhB-wO8/s640/AirWing%2520SAE%2520Surface%2520mount.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-TIP9mMV_tBc/VHlV5UvWItI/AAAAAAAAA_4/J5ELpGetuKA/s512/Dual%2520Heat%2520Controller.JPG)
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I saw the extensions, but they are for the wrong end....LOL
The leads are only 2 ft max, so that is what I extended on this one cable for the F250...
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You had the cable in backwards. You just needed to flip it end for end... :slow:
I was just thinking moving forward.
Where ever you find a place to hang the charger bank from the keyhole on the back and run an extension cord to an outlet.
From here, use extensions to all the items and have the SAE plug already on the vehicles so you don't have to play with opening hoods to hook and unhook the chargers.
I am kind of lazy like that. I wire SAEs with an inline fuse all of the vehicles so I don't have to play with alligator clips.
- When the G6 sits in the winter even over xmas break or if the truck is sitting at home when I am out of town for a week, they get a desulfate charge on it, just because.
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The F250 bats are both sides of the frame...almost 4.5 feet apart...the leads are only about 2 ft max....net is the new extensions I made and hooked up the charger started working right. Based on the photo you provided...it was working right on the charger.
Much appreciated for everyone's input.
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Got the F250 all fixed up and charging...The extensions on the leads I made did the trick.
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Got the F250 all fixed up and charging...The extensions on the leads I made did the trick.
And more importantly, no smoke came out of anything! :burn:
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Got the F250 all fixed up and charging...The extensions on the leads I made did the trick.
And more importantly, no smoke came out of anything! :burn:
None yet but if something did happen it would be bad..
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Got the F250 all fixed up and charging...The extensions on the leads I made did the trick.
Awesome! Glad it's all sorted out. I am sure your batteries will last much longer this time around :clap:
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Got the F250 all fixed up and charging...The extensions on the leads I made did the trick.
Awesome! Glad it's all sorted out. I am sure your batteries will last much longer this time around :clap:
Gonna take the F250 hunting this weekend...gonna be nice to start it up all fresh...and my side by side all fresh too! We had the cold front blow in, 32 outside right now. Thinking of hooking up the block heater tomorrow. LOL...Kidding.
Also ordered a crank puller tool for my side by side and a new kawasaki CVT belt...that project is going to happen AGAIN.
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I like your plug idea Steve, I just routed the charger plugin to be down by the factory block heater and reach in and pull it our to plug in. I sure like the idea of mounting something that is weather proof like above. :cheers:
Just remembered to take a picture of it
(http://www.thedetailerscafe.com/smf/gallery/3/464-071214003844.jpeg)
The small one is a trolling motor outlet. It has 3 pins in it, I just used two of them, the other is dead.
The trolling motor plug is to a SAE plug, to mate up to the Batterminder changer.
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Thanks Steve, that looks really slick!
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I like your plug idea Steve, I just routed the charger plugin to be down by the factory block heater and reach in and pull it our to plug in. I sure like the idea of mounting something that is weather proof like above. :cheers:
Just remembered to take a picture of it
([url]http://www.thedetailerscafe.com/smf/gallery/3/464-071214003844.jpeg[/url])
The small one is a trolling motor outlet. It has 3 pins in it, I just used two of them, the other is dead.
The trolling motor plug is to a SAE plug, to mate up to the Batterminder changer.
So how do you hook the trolling motor to the front of the truck? :Me:
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So how do you hook the trolling motor to the front of the truck? :Me:
Open the hood and hang it on the radiator.
It is kind of comical that I use a trolling motor outlet and a shore line plug on a truck :slow:
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So how do you hook the trolling motor to the front of the truck? :Me:
Open the hood and hang it on the radiator.
It is kind of comical that I use a trolling motor outlet and a shore line plug on a truck :slow:
Actually, it makes perfect sense. This would also allow you to drive directly down the launch ramp instead of that messy backing up thing. :funny:
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So how do you hook the trolling motor to the front of the truck? :Me:
Open the hood and hang it on the radiator.
It is kind of comical that I use a trolling motor outlet and a shore line plug on a truck :slow:
Actually, it makes perfect sense. This would also allow you to drive directly down the launch ramp instead of that messy backing up thing. :funny:
I did have someone used the nickname for the 1972 Cadi on it.
- Land yacht